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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 34 post(s) |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.03.31 09:23:00 -
[1]
The Torp bomber will be of only use to large corporations/large alliances. They will be the only ones able to field enough to take out a battleship before dying.
The plan will remove some tactical/strategic situations for many small to medium corps/alliances.
What I'd do is suggest the Dev in the original post take an existing stealth bomber pilot and copy his skills. Then try the new bomber rules on sisi and see what his results are. I suspect you'd be dismayed how terrible it would actually perform with your suggestions.
To make the Torp Bomber work you'd have to give it a damage bonus to the torps, a velocity bonus to the torps, an explosion velocity bonus to the torps. Then it would act as an anti battleship platform. However giving it the bonuses that would be needed would make it overpowered.
Remember at the ranges you are putting in the stealth bomber will not live long.
If you just fixed the current bombs and improved the explosive velocity of cruise missiles you would have an effective anti blob ship as well as having an anti-battleship plaform. It would remain a more multi purpose vehicle
The more you narrow its role, the less likely it is to be used.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:13:00 -
[2]
The reactivation delay will cause the stealth bomber to be dead pretty much all the time. Since they have to stay on the grid for their weapons to do damage, the additional delay is just like double penalizing them.
I just wish you'd go fly a stealth bomber and see how bad this torp design is, even with the covert ops cloak which is a good addition I just don't think this design can work and you'll see it used much less than it is now.
Or it'll just be used as a cloaking cheap ew platform. After all they can uncloak and target paint from range and cost a lot less than a recon. (Or even ecm, tracking disrupt etc).
Having actually flown Stealth Bombers most of the time the other fleet members kill the ship before my missiles hit if I'm at maximum range. (check BURN's killboard I have several kills in a hound...however all of them were as part of the fleet and most show me doing no damage and target painting....since the target went boom before my missiles hit). Oh and you'll note I do attack battleships with it.
What would I do differently with what you propose. Well the covert ops cloak is nice, but the range of the torpedoes is such that the advantage of the cloak will be mostly nullified. If the battleship has smartbombs or drones ready then you're gonna be pretty much toast, if he has a buddy then your in trouble.
Basically the only viable tactic would be to camp a gate, station, or belt and wait for a target of opportune. You can't alpha a battleship so you need to wait for a wounded one. So how often does a non repairing battleship randomly warp into a belt, gate or station and give you enough to time to close range and fire before leaving?
It will not be fun. Thus the stealth bomber will mostly become a curiosity. Some will use it just because but mostly it will see less and less use.
Remember with cruise missiles the range is an advantage for the attacker and defender. For the stealth bomber attacker he can stay away where he has a chance to survive. For the defender he can see the missiles coming and can warp off before they hit him (or mwd in opposite direction outrunning them). In fact the warping off bit happens quite a bit with all size of ships being fired on.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:30:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Chinchek
keep in mind that BS fleets contain small ships.... you will not be invisible on the battlefield, people will call you out
Sure. But a bomber is still a frigate, after all, comparable to an AF or whatever. If the enemy fleet has anti-frigate ability (this includes frigates of their own), then sure, you need to warp out fast if you're made a target. And due to your fairly high dps and weak tank, you'll very probably be made a target.
So yeah, in that sort of situation you'll need to warp in and out constantly. But that's not the only situation. In a more hectic battle, I can easily see a bomber or two getting ignored in favor of more critical targets.
And honestly... it's still "just" a frigate. I think it's quite ok that it's vulnerable as a drawback to having (for a frigate) immense dps. I see it as a specialist tool, mostly. Should be pretty powerful when flown in a group by people who know what they are doing, not so hot when flown badly or solo.
Hard to say at this point, of course. Needs testing in practice.
If the enemy fleet has an interceptor, assault frigate, destroyer or interdictor you'd be better off not engaging at all. Chances are at least 1 or 2 of them will have instalock and the moment they see you they will lock you and likely scram/disrupt/web. Which means your dead.
Even if they don't you'll see battleships carrying light drones that orbit them to agress you the moment you do uncloak and launch. At best you'll get 2 volleys off, I can command drones well past 50km without mods on any ship.
Keep in mind with these changes you will have no ability to significantly damage anything less than battlecruiser size. You have no tank.
So then it becomes a matter of whether or not you chose to engage.
1. Wait til they are in the mission and follow them in (using a prober buddy in a covert ops). Then while they are taking maximum damage float in and launch torpedos hoping they don't notice you in the confusion.
2. Same thing for ratters.
3. Fleet Battles, small gang you might be okay but any major fleet you'll be dead before you do any significant damage. Even say you had 3k damage. The average 2DD tanked Battleship would take more than 30 Stealth Bombers to alpha. And if you have to use that many you might as well bring more battleships and cruisers.
4. Hang around gates hoping that some poor injured guy tries to flee through the gate giving you enough time to uncloak, fire and hit him. (Not likely incidentally unless he's afk).
What is more likely is they'll be used as a poor man's falcon rather than the intended anti battleship platform CCP envisions.
Now someone suggested lowering their sig radius more and that could be a possible solution, if you approximately halved it from its current amount.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 17:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hesperius
Nagatok = Ranger 1 alt?
Yeah Ranger 1 you have quite a few kills with the SB. Is there any reason you can think of that there is a need to remove the SB we use today? Why not just add a second bomber? Everyone would be happy.
I don't think so, but in EVE anything is possible.
Ranger 1 actually does have over a 100 kills with a Purifier (Amarr Stealth Bomber)
The reason it doesn't show up on his current alliance/corp killboards is that he apparently only recently changed corps. Prior he was in Shiva of Morsus Mihi where I must say he has an impressive number of kills.
At the same time I do disagree with him on the cloak thing. I have seen cloak ships pass one another and not uncloak but more typical they do uncloak one another such that I believe the former is a bug not intended game mechanics.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 17:33:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mecinia Lua on 31/03/2009 17:35:23
stupid forum double post
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 07:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vhedrish Nell
Have you considered how these ships would affect POS warfare? A fleet of frigates... packing torpedoes (with plenty of range), cloaks, and able to covops cyno in and out of any system (including cynojammed systems per the proposed blackops changes). Such a fleet would be able to strike anytime, anywhere, and simply fade into the stars if they faced too much opposition. I don't believe this would be healthy for the game.
Yes most of the major players and alliances have thought of things we've not posted......
I already pointed out why they won't be used to kill Battleships as has everyone else.
So lets look at what they will be used to kill:
1. Soft Targets
Industrials and Transports have huge sig radius, no drones, limited weapons. A solo torp bomber will make short work of these. They'll seek to hit them in the belts because the gate guns of low sec and high sec will kill the bomber. In 0.0 they'll camp gates.
Exhumers and Mining Barges have huge sig radius, slow maneuverability, no weaponry but some drone cover. The problem is most miners don't pay attention or are semi afk. By the time they hear the first explosion it's over. These will be the main targets of bombers I think, especially in empire wars.
Industrial Command Ship like the ships they support huge sig radius, relatively little to no weapons, they do have some drones so there is some danger, but a small wolfpack especially with the aid of a recon or covert ops will make short work of these.
2. Sovereignty Warfare: It would take a wolfpack but it is possible that you could engage important structures like a cyno jammer and deal enough to destroy it. (especially with black ops changes). You'd take a number of decoy ships....super spider tanked ships that draw the attention of the POS weapons, then decloak the bombers and fire. (Gunners of course would probably change targets if present).
However they will not be useful against battleships except where the battleship is already under heavy fire or already damaged.
Fleet battles I don't see them being used in much respect as anti battleship. The time to train the covert ops cloak and the missile skills while less than many other avenues is still probably more than a beginner can do. If they are used in fleets it will not be as bombers, it'll be as cheap ew platforms. At almost 1/10th the price of a falcon they could be used fairly effectively even if they don't have its bonuses.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 07:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Defeated
Originally by: yani dumyat
I like your new ship Chronotis but please can we have 2 ships instead. You'd be our hero and you wouldn't get eaten by sharks 
Two bomber types would indeed be pure win. Maybe they could try to actually adjust the sig radius factor on the cruise one like someone suggested.
A second bomber is a good idea, just make it take covert ops level 3 instead of level 1.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 09:51:00 -
[8]
Anyone run a POS assault with them yet?
I know folks that have a habit of leaving off small weapons from POSs, these stealth bombers may well require you to start putting them on.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 04:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Responding to the most frequent suggestions in the last few pages:
Make a separate bomber class for this new role
This is certainly a please everyone scenario and perfectly logical suggestion by many of you to not cause any unhappiness at all. However we feel that this approach would not work besides being the "path of least resistance". There are some of you who have found a role and strategy that works for you and have dedicated time to specialising in that role and are rightfully critical of having that altered to a new role requiring a change of strategy.
However we believe the vast majority of pilots would and will prefer the new role and the handful who are left preferring the old role in a ship that as we originally stated had missed our original intention for the bomber class would be left happy but we would have a ship class rarely used and a victim of legacy.
It is much better to evolve the original ships role to where it has a better place and part to play in the game than leave a relic ship class that makes little sense to most even if the transition is a painful one, it is a much preferred approach for us.
Dual bonus to both cruise and torpedoes
The other suggestion by many and one we seriously considered originally was this. However it became clear that trying to make the bomber have suitable fitting, range and role requirements to suit both styles of play this would bring would leave be quite horrible as you would have such a vast range of unintended effects which would be a mutant ship and would not have a clear role.
Its anti-large ship but cannot kill them in a few volleys WTF!
This is intended and we hope the majority of you understand why. Having a ship that can one volley a battleship goes to very dark and horrible places quickly. The bomber when combined with other ships in a gang becomes an incredible provider of damage and that is where its focus is at.
It is quite possible despite its perceived survivability rating that you could come up with a strategy which allows you to solo targets. Never underestimate the right scenario and player :)
While I respect your opinion, I believe the stealth bomber will be used less not more with the changes you are using. They'll be flown more because of the covert ops...you could stick a covert ops ability on any ship and double its flight time. In actual combat their role will be to specialized.
With the changes you are doing you would see it used mostly in gangs. A Falcon/Recon/Stealth Bomber combo would probably be best. Falcon locks down target, Recon (or Covert Ops) tackles target, Stealth Bomber provides dps. Useful in small gang warfare, but not in fleet actions.
The next operational use would be in POS warfare. The problem here might be the numbers you need. Using black ops to fly the stealth bombers into the area, then they move to a covert ops/recon near the target. You could decloak fire recloak possibly before the POS targets anyone. Repeat as necessary, slow and painful but it'll get the job done.
The final operational use will be to hit soft targets. A small stealth bomber wolf pack could patrol for soft targets in belts and missions in low sec. They would again need a recon/covert ops prober buddy. The problem here not much mining happens in low sec these days as it is. You could use them in empire wars as well but due to cost you wouldn't generally use it in high sec without a war.
Thus really as part of a team your are helping the ship but at the expense of solo play options. As a solo pilot they are not useful unless your target is afk. I mean honestly who's gonna stick there while you fire torps at them. Before range from cruise gave you a chance, even though often the target would realize and warp off. Without that range the prospects for solo kills is highly diminished other than ganking a mission runner or ratter who is already swamped by NPCs.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
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